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Unbearded View Drop Down
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Keanu Heretic

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Unbearded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 5:40pm
Sounds to me like it is dependent on active players, Gnome. Not everyone can be online 20 hours a day, seven days a week like some do. Given the "flavor of the month" field pk landscape, I don't think a system that rewards bandwagoning anymore than it already does should be implemented. Also, I can't imagine that everyone has the goal of tearing everything up to remake the game in their own image, and the new system you propose takes a dump on years of work that would be wiped out on a whim. No thanks.

And yeah, knighthood and shadow might be on the chopping block at the moment, but Chaos would've been gone a week after Brivenz got permakilled in AGL going by this zany method. Justice would die a week after Cwars ended. Lol.

Can't help but think this would lead to 1 mega clan called the Gray Clan, and two slightly smaller ones: the Good Clan and the other Evil. We'd still be in the same situation, but I would have to listen to three times the babble on oclan.

Imaginative idea, but too chaotic to navigate.
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Malachi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Malachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2020 at 5:51pm
Yea I don't think I've seen Chaos so well represented....and by monsters nonetheless.
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Sfkn2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sfkn2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2020 at 2:48pm
The way the PKP system works is to reward the good PKers because the top 1% will always be the 1%.  The only people it'll punish are the casual players, or people who have been slowly working on their clanner alts.  Characters like Pomacanthus, Symiad, Thasgerd as an example, will almost be irrelevant during PK seasons due to their inactivity - and let me be clear on this, I don't mean that they suck, but that they aren't PKing as much.  By the time they get anywhere with their main clanner, the season would have already reset - even if the stats are re-spec'ed.


Edit: As the player behind the character with the most PKP in game, I've enjoyed PKPs a lot - it allowed me to "compete" with concarded characters on the field.  At the same time, it also made me feel less competitive in the arena because I haven't invested money into this character - which really made me not want to do ACFL/AGL anymore.  I do feel like there are a few problems with competition in DSL in general, and PKP is one of them.  I do wish that PKP was completely removed, and that concards are kept in check (probably unlikely, since that directly funds the game and that no one would actually donate if it didn't give them a benefit to the game), and that Conclave spell dam is looked at.




Edited by Sfkn2 - 24 October 2020 at 2:53pm
Vandavar tells the group 'i can never find the hole'

Malikk tells the group 'jobs are overrated when you're the number 1 pker on dsl'
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Galaydon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Galaydon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2020 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Galaydon Galaydon wrote:

Originally posted by Galaydon Galaydon wrote:

This will bring a lot of hate and for once I'm not even trolling.

Highlight all the pkp code then press delete.

I want that feeling back of working days on finding someone's habits and gate posts. I want to let out a yell when we chase someone across two continents to finally get just 1 kill that day. I want to be forced into setting traps and seeking out new ways to kill you. I want the guy playing the char I'm fighting giving me 110% effort to rip my head off. I don't want someone sitting there not caring if they win or lose cause of some STUPID stat point. I want to break down every piece of mechanics to try and get even the slightest edge. I want to log every single fight just to break it down and eliminate any slight mistake. I want to be level 25 and terrified to leave the hall and train because I'm trying to hit 51 without losing the wanted flag. I want max effort from everyone, at all times. I dont want some stupid stat point for half hearted effort. I want see if I bring enough skill to a fight to win. I want to see if I have what it takes or do I need to push harder. Give me effort. Give me skill. DSL pkp has made us all lazy. You all have gone soft and forgot competition. Stop giving me a participation trophy.
(Imm) Scorn OOC: 'I don't care what Maccus thinks, so its cool. :)'

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Malachi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Malachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2020 at 11:35am
As someone who is experiencing PKP on a hitter for the first time......it get redonkulous.

It breaks the checks and balances.

I don't think deleting it all would be fair to those who have accumulated it. Just cap it per stat. This gives the opportunity for superior variation. Not every human can deadlift as much as Eddie Hall but Eddie Hall still exists. Eddie Hall is like a human with 8-10 more stat points in STR! Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deathscythe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2020 at 2:30pm
Forcing others to spread their PKPs into other stats besides STR and DEX would be good, I think.  I'd enjoy seeing how INT or WIS could affect things, and not simply on the battlefield.
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Lebowski View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lebowski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 8:05am
Originally posted by Galaydon Galaydon wrote:

This will bring a lot of hate and for once I'm not even trolling.

Highlight all the pkp code then press delete.

I want that feeling back of working days on finding someone's habits and gate posts. I want to let out a yell when we chase someone across two continents to finally get just 1 kill that day. I want to be forced into setting traps and seeking out new ways to kill you. I want the guy playing the char I'm fighting giving me 110% effort to rip my head off. I don't want someone sitting there not caring if they win or lose cause of some STUPID stat point. I want to break down every piece of mechanics to try and get even the slightest edge. I want to log every single fight just to break it down and eliminate any slight mistake. I want to be level 25 and terrified to leave the hall and train because I'm trying to hit 51 without losing the wanted flag. I want max effort from everyone, at all times. I dont want some stupid stat point for half hearted effort. I want see if I bring enough skill to a fight to win. I want to see if I have what it takes or do I need to push harder. Give me effort. Give me skill. DSL pkp has made us all lazy. You all have gone soft and forgot competition. Stop giving me a participation trophy.

Big agree, when people aren't trying to survive there's no fun to be had in trying to kill them.
"I adored Biem, and really miss having him around. When mages were being too helpful and I needed my abuse, Biem was there for me wielding his words like demoralizing brain knives."



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Dezmond View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dezmond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by Lebowski Lebowski wrote:

Originally posted by Galaydon Galaydon wrote:

This will bring a lot of hate and for once I'm not even trolling.

Highlight all the pkp code then press delete.

I want that feeling back of working days on finding someone's habits and gate posts. I want to let out a yell when we chase someone across two continents to finally get just 1 kill that day. I want to be forced into setting traps and seeking out new ways to kill you. I want the guy playing the char I'm fighting giving me 110% effort to rip my head off. I don't want someone sitting there not caring if they win or lose cause of some STUPID stat point. I want to break down every piece of mechanics to try and get even the slightest edge. I want to log every single fight just to break it down and eliminate any slight mistake. I want to be level 25 and terrified to leave the hall and train because I'm trying to hit 51 without losing the wanted flag. I want max effort from everyone, at all times. I dont want some stupid stat point for half hearted effort. I want see if I bring enough skill to a fight to win. I want to see if I have what it takes or do I need to push harder. Give me effort. Give me skill. DSL pkp has made us all lazy. You all have gone soft and forgot competition. Stop giving me a participation trophy.

Big agree, when people aren't trying to survive there's no fun to be had in trying to kill them.

Delete the PKP code, gotta address the issue of OMFG's, Clave 2.55x, pixies and who knows what other host of problems people've selectively neglected because "PKP Bad!"
19 : Maccus (1000 kills) [ Eclipse ] Human, Skald

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Azah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Azah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 2:06pm
PKP has a billion times more impact in field PK than concards do. Concards are more of a concern in arena fighting.

If you want to fix field PK, remove PKP.

If you want to fix arena fighting, remove concards.
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Malachi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Malachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 2:23pm
So why was PKP started to begin with? Would people PK less if you completely removed PKP?

I think a cap of 8-10 per stat is more than enough to reel in PKP. You don't really need anything fancier than that.
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Tongpu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tongpu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Azah Azah wrote:

PKP has a billion times more impact in field PK than concards do. Concards are more of a concern in arena fighting.

If you want to fix field PK, remove PKP.

If you want to fix arena fighting, remove concards.

What he said.

@Malachi: Pkp began as a way to reward people for participating in field pk. It wasn't
until later we realized the long term impact and damage it would cause to casual play.
An uncalculated outcome of pkp was also the growth of survival apathy, which leads to
people being rewarded for essentially turning off their will to live. And that is not good.


Edited by Tongpu - 27 December 2020 at 2:40pm
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Malachi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Malachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by Tongpu Tongpu wrote:

Originally posted by Azah Azah wrote:

PKP has a billion times more impact in field PK than concards do. Concards are more of a concern in arena fighting.

If you want to fix field PK, remove PKP.

If you want to fix arena fighting, remove concards.


What he said.

@Malachi: Pkp began as a way to reward people for participating in field pk. It wasn't
until later we realized the long term impact and damage it would cause to casual play.
An uncalculated outcome of pkp was also the growth of survival apathy, which leads to
people being rewarded for essentially turning off their will to live. And that is not good.







I totally agree with what you said about "survival apathy". I may have died more than my fair share but it was never out of not caring about trying to live.

I don't really enjoy just steamrolling folks looking for that +1, although I will gladly do it to chase numbers myself. I much rather enjoy a tough fight in which both parties stay to the end. Heck, the most enjoyable PK experience I've had recently was vs a red mage, not even a CSR, who just refused to die after days and days of continuously attacking him. It made me work.


Edited by Malachi - 27 December 2020 at 5:22pm
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Dezmond View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dezmond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Azah Azah wrote:

PKP has a billion times more impact in field PK than concards do. Concards are more of a concern in arena fighting.

If you want to fix field PK, remove PKP.

If you want to fix arena fighting, remove concards.

It all leads back to the same place though. Playerbase greed. 
19 : Maccus (1000 kills) [ Eclipse ] Human, Skald

(Imm) Xenophon OOC: 'you're a grown ass salt shaker, you cant use your age as an excuse!'
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Azah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Azah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by Malachi Malachi wrote:

So why was PKP started to begin with? Would people PK less if you completely removed PKP?

I think a cap of 8-10 per stat is more than enough to reel in PKP. You don't really need anything fancier than that.


Yeah, they would.

As a quick history lesson- back in the day, there was no crafted equipment, and anyone could be full looted on death. Despite the ever-present risk of being flooted, PK was constant with major group-on-group brawls and one-on-one fights both prevalent. Not to the same extent as people spamming for duels via tells or cgossip today (is that still a thing? I haven't had cgos on for years) but enough that any honorable PKer would happily duke it out with you 1v1 without calling for backup.

Fast forward to 2003- the bountypoint system is implemented. At first it was just for show and you couldn't actually buy anything. Later on, weapon averages across the board were lowered from most high-tier 1h weapons being avg 24 to 22 max, and 2h weapons were lowered from 25 to 24 max. All except for the Sword of the Gods (which I'm still convinced was an oversight), a weapon you could buy at the questmaster that was not only a 1h avg 24 weapons, but was also shocking bite, making it an amazing weapon. This oversight was eventually fixed and the sword was removed from the game, later to be brought back as bounty weapons, which have the same stats as oldstyle SotG's. (I think, not sure about the weights, I don't recall oldstlye SotG's being heavy AF, but that's neither here nor there). Looting is also bounty-based, meaning the more bountypoints you have, the more you can loot. I think it's still that way? I'm not certain since I haven't heard of anyone getting looted in ages, most clanners tend to keep nopkloot on so they can go out and PK in their dragonskins and highly enchanted crafted gear and not risk losing it.

Anyways, after the bounty changes were introduced but before PKP was implemented, most people were absolutely terrified of going out to PK and risk losing their hard-earned BP. The BP list was the big-dick ruler of the PK world, and unless you had a ton of BP, nobody really took you seriously. The only way most people accumulated so much BP was to go out in a group of four or five, minimum, and go take or defend keeps. Otherwise, the field PK scene was all but dead. Sure, there were always exceptions. But compared to the post-PKP world, there was precious little field PK to be found.

So, in a way, PKP did exactly what it was supposed to do- removed any penalties for dying and rewarded people who went out to PK, win or lose. The problem is that the pendulum swung way too far in the opposite direction, and there was no corrective action taken by the IMMs to balance it out. I've been advocating for the removal of PKP for years now, but even I have to admit that if you just highlighted the PKP code and hit delete, we'd probably go back to the old PK scene- dead and barren with even fewer people willing to go out and fight than there used to be before PKP was a thing.


TLDR: Before PKP there was just bountypoints, and PK was dead because nobody wanted to risk losing their BP.

Edited by Azah - 27 December 2020 at 7:38pm
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gnome power View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnome power Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 8:24pm
Pk boomed when we had 250 people on in a time, a perpetual influx of people throughout the level range, more concentrated leveling in fewer and less amazing areas like great forest, using less amazing damage without crafted gear or boosts to chew through mobs. Back then, there were still plenty of 51s but there wasn’t such a lack at lower levels either.
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Malachi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Malachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 9:22pm
Everything was better "back in the day".

At this point in the game it seems to be more a matter of retaining players or bringing back old ones. I think a hard cap would do that.
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Azah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Azah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2020 at 11:06pm
Lots of people have had plenty of good ideas over the years, but it is clear at this point that nothing, aside from some minor balance changes, will happen. People have largely even stopped trying to convince nonclanners to dip their toes in the clanning waters. At this point, you either understand what you are signing up for and enjoy the state of PK, or you stick with nonclanning, or only log in during organized arena or RP events.

But PK is never going to be like it was back in its heyday. Call that wearing rose-colored glasses if you like, but it's the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jorthus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2020 at 12:55pm
Bump!   Any word on this Scorn?   Would love to see this as a New Year feature!




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