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Taken From: Chaos

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Current Spell Target: Shalonesti

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Current Owners: New_Thalos
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Last Owners: Arkane

 
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Dezmond View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dezmond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Tongpu Tongpu wrote:

Rewards such as:
 Φ access to a piece of furniture that is unique that may or may not improve
    your regen while sleeping on it for your personal home
 Φ access to an extra room for your personal home above the restricted amount
 Φ access to a personal item that automatically blesses/fireproofs things you put into
 Φ access to enhanced vault space


I like these, but we still also need to address things like Clave 2.55x and whats going to happen to those who have invested a good chunk of time in getting pkp to be competitive in regular field pk
19 : Maccus (1000 kills) [ Eclipse ] Human, Skald

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Tongpu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tongpu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 7:08pm
I'd love to see the prestige benefit go away entirely, but understand that pkpstats
aren't going away completely either.. and hitters will still benefit way more than
casters from pkpstats based on the virtue that strength is more impactful.

It would be fun/good to crowdsource solutions on that.
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gnome power View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnome power Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 7:11pm
What if pkp led to kwars swag?

Then, with enough triumph, a knight or luster could actually become a ruler.
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Tongpu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tongpu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 7:13pm
In an ideal situation, under my suggestion for rewards, you could get a lot of what
you could get in this pkp seasonal rewards system in the KWARs reward system.
They could have a lot of the same rewards, with slight variations to emphasize
the side of the game's coin they are playing in.

But a rewards system where you get rewarded for being an efficient killer with items
that make you an even MORE efficient killer is out of the question.


Edited by Tongpu - 10 February 2020 at 7:45pm
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Slann View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by Tongpu Tongpu wrote:

He was recommending clans/individuals get bonuses for "end of season" pkp tallies. 
Rewards like dragonskins, +hp cards, +mana cards, clan_wide buffs, and the like. 

The only thing I suggested was a temporary passive keep-style buff.

Your opinion as it was expressed was that any sort of reward was a garbage idea. I certainly would agree that skins, MA points, HP/Mana, even -saves would be detrimental.
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PersiaDark View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PersiaDark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by Juelian Juelian wrote:

Originally posted by PersiaDark PersiaDark wrote:


 Random stuff PD said

I've thought about your response and depending on the implementation details I could compromise. For instance, if balancing the base line were a real focus it would go a long way. I think that would be good for the game in general. There are some really good ideas from others in this thread about ways to potentially balance (most of those boil down to tweaking strength, or having other stats potentially factored into the most important skill checks, like parry). If that were done it mostly alleviates my argument about playing catch up over the long haul.

You make a good point about PKP cutting both ways (it makes the weak stronger and the strong stronger). There is a PvE soft benefit in that the weak (strength wise) can participate in ways that is harder at the baseline (that strong race/classes don't have as much of an issue with). I think we've all watched a mage type with low strength and no PKP lose all their HP trying to get to the safe room in a keep. People with mid 60's strength, not so much of an issue of importance.

The more that I think about this topic and read peoples ideas I'm still pro some cap that you can work towards that stays static and then maybe a seasonal component (although I still don't love the seasonal component's constantly having to restart if there was a mix I could get on board with it). Maybe the static portion costs more that the seasonal component and maybe that cap isn't very high so that its not game breaking.

Your points are well taken, they've got me thinking. There are a lot of positive ideas in this thread I like.

Okay you are being too nice ;). 

But yea pretty good discussions all around! Its good to look out for the lil'guy, I'm still a kender-lover harhar.
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Galaydon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (5) Thanks(5)   Quote Galaydon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 11:30pm
This will bring a lot of hate and for once I'm not even trolling.

Highlight all the pkp code then press delete.

I want that feeling back of working days on finding someone's habits and gate posts. I want to let out a yell when we chase someone across two continents to finally get just 1 kill that day. I want to be forced into setting traps and seeking out new ways to kill you. I want the guy playing the char I'm fighting giving me 110% effort to rip my head off. I don't want someone sitting there not caring if they win or lose cause of some STUPID stat point. I want to break down every piece of mechanics to try and get even the slightest edge. I want to log every single fight just to break it down and eliminate any slight mistake. I want to be level 25 and terrified to leave the hall and train because I'm trying to hit 51 without losing the wanted flag. I want max effort from everyone, at all times. I dont want some stupid stat point for half hearted effort. I want see if I bring enough skill to a fight to win. I want to see if I have what it takes or do I need to push harder. Give me effort. Give me skill. DSL pkp has made us all lazy. You all have gone soft and forgot competition. Stop giving me a participation trophy.
(Imm) Scorn OOC: 'I don't care what Maccus thinks, so its cool. :)'

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Nymaya View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nymaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2020 at 4:35am
In recognizing that PKP is likely here to stay, I'd like to voice support for the unchanging 5-8 cap suggestion at the very least.

@Galaydon

I remember those days.

The jitters everytime I stepped out of the hall, even if only briefly. Learning how to escape, how to set traps, planning them to the second, and so on.

Around the time PKP had just come in, I had just begun hitting my groove and the amount of fun I was having on multiple different clanners was outstanding. I -wanted- to come back for PK as much as RP.

I want those pitched battles back that could go either way depending on tactics, lucky maladicts, etc. The fights that sometimes took you across the continents and made people feel accomplished or instilled the desire to get back out there for rematches.

Edited by Nymaya - 11 February 2020 at 4:51am
(Imm) Tashio wears the severed pinky of Nymaya on a barbed chain around his neck.
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Malachi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Malachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2020 at 7:43am
I always thought the intention of PKP was to get folks out there PKing? Perhaps it has evolved to quantity over quality. My last memory of DSL before I came back was full corpse looting and no corpse repop. But, gear was simpler to acquire as it was all in-game. I died so often in the Church of The Stars :)

Hard PK cap going once! Twice! Sold!

Make em easy to get so that you could start a new char and get him competitive in a month or two.
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PersiaDark View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PersiaDark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2020 at 9:02am
Originally posted by Malachi Malachi wrote:

I always thought the intention of PKP was to get folks out there PKing? Perhaps it has evolved to quantity over quality. My last memory of DSL before I came back was full corpse looting and no corpse repop. But, gear was simpler to acquire as it was all in-game. I died so often in the Church of The Stars :)

Hard PK cap going once! Twice! Sold!

Make em easy to get so that you could start a new char and get him competitive in a month or two.

I am hyped about the resets invigorating PK a bit. Its no silver bullet (OR IS IT), but the point is CURRENTLY PKP is not much of an incentive anymore to keep PKing.

Either you are a new character fighting 100 STR folk, or you are an old character with 100 STR who needs 6 months of kills to get another PKP because you already have so much. 


As someone who never did seasons in my younger years (for things like Path of Exile and Diablo), I cant believe how much more fun restarting-regularly is. And thats with a FULL reset heh. 




edit: sidenote not sure if anyone mentioned it, I think during Roundtable I remember Scorn saying he was interested in fixing the 300+ stat limitation thing if he did Seasons. So assuming that doesnt change, races like Deep Gnomes, Most elves, and most dwarves wont have to wait for 5-9 PKP levels before getting a stat. There are a couple of high-str winners there too (Mul/Orc), but thats the minority.

Ogres/G-ogres still going to suck but that has nothing to do with PKP ;). 


Edited by PersiaDark - 11 February 2020 at 9:07am
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vikinglad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote vikinglad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2020 at 9:29am
Just a few points.

In every online gaming Player Versus Player there is MMR and Ladder. The more wins you get, the more you are placed with people of similar talent. When you rise to the top, you are the best because you have beaten the best.

DSL PVP is NOT like the normal standard games. We have PVP points which is an incentive to play. If you die or if you win, you get a reward. Almost like a daily reward in other PVP games. You have bounty points which are closer to MMR, if you die then you go down and if you win a lot you go up. However you can farm lowbies or new players for BP as much as you want. Then you have top PK'er which may not necessarily be because you are skillful but a combination of PKP, groups, and how much you play.

There is very little within DSL that shows the status of how good you actually are. So I think we should put aside this idea that PKP kept the skillful players from rising up or artificially padded poor players since at the end of the day the real "test" for skillful players doesn't exist.

On the pure topic of PKP rewards. What I am hearing is "since all my work for PKP is going away, I would like something to stay as a reward between seasons". Now you have underworld gear, bp skills and items, as well as clan only reclasses in the PK world. The fact that you need MORE rewards to PK or clan shows that the idea of PVP just for the sake of PVP has been corroded. We are resetting PKP because the system needs seasonal balances. It's a BALANCE issue that seems to be now a "reward" issue. You don't really need more rewards to PVP. You need more "achievements" in PVP. You need another challenge.

So let's just look at things how they are, this is a balance fix and we should treat it as such. If you want different rewards for PVP, then focus on that. If you want your race/class to be more competitive in PVP then look at that. However PKP seems to have been an idea to make PVP more interesting and got too large and needs a scale back. So, universal acceptance of the idea seems to be it. However people want additional incentives which would probably make great new feedback polls.
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Sephirot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sephirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2020 at 12:10pm
I prefer max pkp trains total of 20 instead of seasons with max 10 per stat.

But Change is good.
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Malachi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Malachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2020 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by PersiaDark PersiaDark wrote:

Originally posted by Malachi Malachi wrote:

I always thought the intention of PKP was to get folks out there PKing? Perhaps it has evolved to quantity over quality. My last memory of DSL before I came back was full corpse looting and no corpse repop. But, gear was simpler to acquire as it was all in-game. I died so often in the Church of The Stars :)

Hard PK cap going once! Twice! Sold!

Make em easy to get so that you could start a new char and get him competitive in a month or two.


I am hyped about the resets invigorating PK a bit. Its no silver bullet (OR IS IT), but the point is CURRENTLY PKP is not much of an incentive anymore to keep PKing.

Either you are a new character fighting 100 STR folk, or you are an old character with 100 STR who needs 6 months of kills to get another PKP because you already have so much. 


As someone who never did seasons in my younger years (for things like Path of Exile and Diablo), I cant believe how much more fun restarting-regularly is. And thats with a FULL reset heh. 




edit: sidenote not sure if anyone mentioned it, I think during Roundtable I remember Scorn saying he was interested in fixing the 300+ stat limitation thing if he did Seasons. So assuming that doesnt change, races like Deep Gnomes, Most elves, and most dwarves wont have to wait for 5-9 PKP levels before getting a stat. There are a couple of high-str winners there too (Mul/Orc), but thats the minority.

Ogres/G-ogres still going to suck but that has nothing to do with PKP ;). 




I'll just throw all my 10 trains into DEX and always have Citadel bonus!
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xaerik View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote xaerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2020 at 11:25am
Not that I think Scorn is likely to make it this far in the thread, I feel like some more reflection and reading/hearing others opinions still leaves me basically of the same opinion.

Go for it.

I'm obviously all for temp/non-PK influencing rewards for season completions.

Caps as an idea I'm torn on, but only because of the 92 str conundrum.  I want, think, and is well-deserved, for ONLY ogres and giant ogres to receive some kind of benefit to being what they are.  So if a 10 stat cap is implemented, I'd want the 92 str bonus removed, and something else added to ogre/gogre in its place.  And because of that single complication, its a lot easier to say no to caps.

For me, anyways.
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Tongpu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tongpu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2020 at 12:23pm
Agreed with Xaerik on ogre stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Erithalon. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2020 at 2:24pm
Hey, there are other characters with over 92 str that need that damage. It isn't just an ogre thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Spiliph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2020 at 2:36pm
I think that we need to get away from the PKP gives you stats. That is a wholly broken system due to the compounding benefits that it brings. However the main thing that gets people excited about PKP is:
1. The ability to customize their characters
2. The ability to mitigate some vulnerability / flaw in said character.

So we don't we offer abilities instead stats?
* Enhanced Parry
* Enhanced Dodger
* Enhanced Blocker
* Resistance to Lightning ...
* Sure swing
* Spell noun changes
* etc

Basically instead of doing a layering approach we could have skills like enhanced parry set your parry to a specific good value, lets say 35% chance to parry. That way even a kender would benefit from great parrying from day 1. Similar things could be done to enhance Thac0. That way we can limit to maximum benefit (e.g. Someone with 100 STR, and 100 DEX parrying 80% of swing), but still give a great benefit to characters with a weakness in that area.

Now the balance aspect would come from limiting your choice to like 3 abilities per season, with the first ability requiring very few points, and the other two exponentially more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lebowski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2020 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Galaydon Galaydon wrote:

This will bring a lot of hate and for once I'm not even trolling.

Highlight all the pkp code then press delete.

...

I want max effort from everyone, at all times. I dont want some stupid stat point for half hearted effort. I want see if I bring enough skill to a fight to win. I want to see if I have what it takes or do I need to push harder. Give me effort. Give me skill. DSL pkp has made us all lazy. You all have gone soft and forgot competition. Stop giving me a participation trophy.

I agree 100%.

The motivation for PKP was in the right place - trying to create an incentive structure for people to fight more often - but the end result is that people don't go out to fight, they go out to die.

When people dying is pretty much a foregone conclusion, instead of something you had to chase, it pretty much killed any motivation I had to actually participate in the system and a large part of why I stepped away from DSL entirely with the exception of ACFL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnome power Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2020 at 7:43pm
I'm still not quite over the heart palpitations from dgnomes being freed of lightning vuln. Lebowski, surprised you're not in the same boat.

What if the str-based damage increases were assigned to size rather than str?

No matter how much you pkp'd up your mul or s-elf, you would not get the g-ogre dam bonus. 

It would also give a reason to be these really burly races in a world where everyone can roid up their str.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pixieboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 February 2020 at 8:18pm
Or don't do seasons and implement something like this.

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