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Scorn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Scorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PKP Seasons
    Posted: 08 February 2020 at 7:48pm
Please discuss. Stay on topic and be courteous.

PKP seasons will be periodical RESET OF PKP’s and PK stats. We are considering doing this every 3-6 months.

With that, PK trains will become easier to obtain.

Looking for your well thought out thoughts on this as we are considering doing this soon.

Thanks,
-Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fynix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 8:02pm

Some clarity sought on this issue, you mean to say... Fynix has been PKing for some time now, through a large series of deaths and the odd lucky kill, he's gained 500 pkps, and thus earned himself 16 stats which he's put into his str and dex to make his crafting life easier (probably less because ariel, but you get the idea).

Now you're saying every few months he'll need to earn them all over again?  What would be the point of earning them in the first place then?  A miniscule, momentary advantage?

I suppose the Pro is that hardcore, longtime PK monsters like Azheri and Thanatael and Symiad would be brought down to mortal standards (especially if they don't PK as often as they used to due to IRL restraints), but methinks is not a grand Pro.  People don't play as much as they used to.  Making it so their hard work is even more meaningless means they just won't work.

PKP remains one of the few reasons I Clan at all.  I'd probably Clan far, far, far, far, FAR less if it was pointless.



Alternately, are you suggesting with this change you reset the PKPs only and not the stats?  Meaning those 500 pkps I got 16 stats, then I start over, and I can earn more stats quicker?  THAT would REALLY re-invigorate the PKP field, especially right after such a season.  Slight Con to that Pro is that the PKP monsters being doubly monstrous, BUT there is an upper limit to how much stats can be granted (once you're 100 str/100 dex, not much really matters), so I suppose that's an acceptable thing in my book.



AH!  I have a suitable comparison!  It's like levelling up to 51 then having to start over at 25 every few months!  If that's the case, who would bother?!



Edited by Fynix - 08 February 2020 at 8:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tongpu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 8:27pm
Pkp seasons are a step in the right direction when curbing the pkp problem,
but it ultimately becomes less of a reward and more of a chore to re-achieve.
Few people would likely find enjoyment in re-earning something they had al-
ready obtained. We're also in a situation where some races are only playable 
thanks to pkp, while a good amount of races are fine standing on their own 
two (or four) feet.

But who knows. 

Maybe people will become less focused on the amount of pkp they get if it lacks 
any permanence. If that is the case, then something else will need to happen to
keep DSL's field pvp something worth pursuing. I believe capping is still the best 
route; offering a permanent reward with reasonable hard limits, but something 
such as seasons is a better solution than not doing anything.

What will happen with races with extremely high stat totals who need 150-400
pkp to see a stat under the proposed pkp season change?


Edited by Tongpu - 08 February 2020 at 8:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote tjthewho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 8:44pm
I think a combination of seasonal points and a hard cap would be nice.

Hard cap 10-20 levels (I don't know what's realistic) from standard PKP, then let more PKP be earnable by season. That was the people that get tired of clanning on a character or want to try something out can still enjoy the rewards they've reaped (like stats) by retiring and being able to walk around with that sexy str.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Tongpu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 8:50pm
TJ is on to something there. A middle-ground would be good. 

A hard initial cap of maybe 10 or 15 pkpstats. You can get more stats after that
initial 10 or 15, but they would be effected by the seasons and be reset while the
initial 10 or 15 wouldn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Julthax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 9:09pm
I agree with Tj.  I would much rather have a hard cap as the core of the pkp system, and then have seasons as a bonus for those who are active.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Longstrider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 9:27pm
hard cap with a minimal maximum temporary seasonal cap boost and

SOME AWESOME THINGS TO SPEND POINTS ON

Double exp, double gold, double qps, rare weapons (1hers equiv to 2hers), trade in for eggs, trade for seals, seals as prizes after cap met, access to special potions stores with a purchasable badge, trainable account pets for rangers and ariels
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Juelian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 9:40pm
TL;DR - I'm not opposed to a overhaul, I think it would be good. But I have thoughts and I do have some bias and will share how it concerns me personally.

I think some change is good, but I'm biased because I'm a one character person who made a mediocre race viable through years of trying to accumulate PKP (although people can argue, -no one- makes s-elves who wants to meta PK, just doesn't happen because they're a mediocre race). Azheri told me, you'll never be elite playing an s-elf. And he's right. I've only become decent because I fought live or die for PKP. Why? The strength stat is overpowered (which is why everyone trains it, pull the stats on where PKP trains are allocated and I'd bet dimes to dollars it's top heavy strength and that's the proof.. people wouldn't put all their trains there if it weren't -the- stat that mattered far more than the others).

I would prefer a cap OR a cap plus a seasonal component that gets reset. So, you could have something to work toward that doesn't get taken away but then the seasonal component that rewards activity.

I would need to know more specifics about the new system, but here's questions and thoughts:

1.) This will change the have and have nots to high ability out of the gate class/race combos. There's really no chance to catch up.. because if you do, it just gets reset and then you're 10 steps behind that high ability race/class combo again. Always being behind the 8 ball sounds tiring. Balancing things has to be apart of this then I'm on board.
2.) Will the Clave 2.55x be looked at in tandem?
3.) Will races with above 300 stat lines (but all in the wrong places) be perpetually gimped as a result?
4.) Will trolls and super high strength classes be 100% unbeatable because NO one can compete with that strength or ever have HOPE of competing with that strength regardless of how much time you put in?
5.) I would be more pro for this if strength were balanced (it's not now). With no PKP weapon stun falls back into line (this is a good thing because it's the most powerful unbalancing PASSIVE skill in the game). You get a lot for doing -nothing- with it. Lower the clip that strength matters in parry a bit. Do this alone and strength is still important but balances more. It doesn't have to be gimped, just lower the % strength matters a little bit.
6.) My advice is to get some balance at the baseline.

I would love to see the ability to work toward something, but also have balance. If I'm relegated to just being mediocre by the shear fact I play a 37 strength char and can't hit the broad side of a barn (because parry right) then I probably won't PK as often (which I enjoy doing, one of the things I like about the game). From a personal perspective, going from too much PKP to 10 steps behind doesn't sound appealing to me (going from too much PKP to even/balance or close to that sounds decent). I think that's where most people can agree. Everyone wants a fair shake from the start. If it's unbalanced from the base line it's hard to get the rest right.

That said, I'd have to see more details of this system before I'd jump to conclusions. I will say, I was an old player who came back when people had lots of PKP, so I started with nothing and got PUMMELED and it was obnoxious and I can understand why new players don't want to play and have no chance of success. I've been on both sides. We need something with incentive but also some balance in a few areas (-cough- strength stat).

And because text doesn't carry tone well, this is constructive. I'm not upset. I am adamant though that strength is the lopsided stat and addressing that alone would go a long way (again, not saying gimp it, just saying tweak it down a little and see how it plays out with or without PKP changes).

This is a tough change to make but you're right to address it.

And finally, LONG LIVE DSL!

Edited by Juelian - 09 February 2020 at 10:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Galaydon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 10:15pm
10 points per stat cap. Resets every 4 months. Leave them as hard to get as they are now.

Edited by Galaydon - 08 February 2020 at 10:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Lothaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 10:20pm
I would just point out that we've lost way more people over the years to the current pkp system than the handful that are voicing concerns about the possibility of quitting clanning if it's curtailed. It's always seemed to me those defending the current system are speaking from an "I got mine" standpoint. Often it seems those are the same people voicing concerns they can't get any kills/deaths that aren't on their lastkill list these days. I really don't consider it fun to jump into a system with a new char that requires you to repeatedly suicide for months to even begin to get competitive. 

The concept of seasons puzzled me when I first heard the idea floated and it really isn't any more clear to me now. If it's a hard reset every 3-6 months, I can see how that would rub some people the wrong way. For better or worse we've all put hours upon hours into these characters and those who put their currency in the pkp bank are being threatened to have it go bust. Though the damage the system is causing to the game is apparent, since we are considering this. I do happen to think even a hard wipe would be better than leaving the bloated monster of a system as is, but there has to be a way to go about it without completely robbing everyone who has invested into this system. I'd really be more in favor of a stat cap be it in combination with pk seasons or not. At least then the overpowered people would be proportionally so. 

It always seemed to me that pkp was designed to reward participation in the clan system, but it rewards the wrong things. Instead of competitive battles the easiest way to a pkp payoff is one rounding a lowbie, suiciding in a keep, or a group jumping someone at a bindstone and the such. I'd really consider a system of distributing points for time hostile rather than for actual kills. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote xaerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 10:27pm
My personal and as unbiased as possible approach is going to be:

If our (the entirety of DSL's players) only opportunity to sandbox the idea of PKP changes is to put it on 4k in a live environment, then yes it MUST be done.

But I'd propose this change to the initial question:

1.  Run this as a trial through April 1, 2020.  No feedback actively listened to until 30 days (March 8, 2020).
2.  Consider feedback from March 9, 2020 - April 1, 2020.
3.  Decision/implementation to occur on April 1, 2020.

There will naturally be those resistant to change who will survive a 1 month trial.  There are many who will not give 3 months a chance, let alone 6 months.  Our pbase has dwindle enough over the years, lets try and be more reasonable to a:  let folks see a PKP-less environment, and b:  allow time to/opportunity to tweak.

We cant let ourselves be so static and specific to our own individual "wants" and opinions to simply not allow this a chance.  Will it change everyone's opinion?  Probably not.  But something needs to happen to make better decisions going forward.

EDIT:  Also, I'm going to refrain from adding additional input or replies for a few days, simply because I feel its a bit counter-intuitive to spam the thread full of back of forth before more people have a chance to give their 2 cents.

I hope everyone gives some opinion!


Edited by xaerik - 08 February 2020 at 11:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote gnome power Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 11:09pm
I think it's necessary and great to curtail pkp. I'm really glad this came up.

My one worry is that seasons is kind of like a mini "egg/gear wipe" every 3-6 months. Will it regularly chase out some portion of the pbase each time?

Something like a hard limit on stats might be preferable. That way, it still feels like a bonus instead of a regular loss, and there won't be a regular event that could cause players to leave.

I'd be an even bigger proponent of pkp granting changes that do not affect pk, like special restrings, some kind of storyline significance, convenience, even unlocking master account reward options or just regular features (races, classes, something). For example, suppose that with a certain amount of pkp a barbarian  could buy permanent detect inv/hid. That wouldn't score them any more kills, but it would sure enhance their quality of life.

But I'm really glad this is on the docket. Thank you.


Edited by gnome power - 08 February 2020 at 11:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lactan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 11:48pm
I've always been a fan of hard caps. 50 total points with no more than 10 in any stat.

This way you would max out around 4k pkp. And while you would be better than a new character it wouldn't be too overwhelming.

I don't like the idea of having to regain pkp every 6 months and without caps races quickest to 100 str will only be viable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZzZz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2020 at 11:54pm
10 seems a little high per stat, tbh.  I would lean more towards 8.  I think people should give this idea a chance before shooting it down so fast.  We all know DSL is worst off because of the pk point system.

As has been stated before, I would lean towards a hard cap of 8-10.  Not sure in every stat is what the system needs.  Perhaps 2-3 stats, but not all 5.  The whole point of the seasons system is so its something fresh you do every couple months, and because you aren't trying to infinitely earn pk points, the limit of how much you lose is mitigated per season.

That being said, I agree with Xaerik that a test period should be done, and not yolo just done on a whim (the changes that is).  Much as when Scorn did years ago when he took out scan and where for a day, I think this should be tested over a period of time, and see how it works.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Symiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 1:59am
I agree that STR being THE most important stat is a huge part of the problem. We should talk about that in another thread.

From a resident PKP monster:

The current system has 2 small flaws. Small flaws with huge consequences.

1. Participation level - Races with statlines over 300 don't get to participate until they earn enough points to surpass their base statline advantage. (sour grapes as a result) 

2. Reward is far toooo high at the bottom end of the system. For example, Symiad has just about 4400 points out of the maximum of 100,000 points, roughly 4.4%, yet for some reason enjoys the benefit of 52% of the total reward possible (52 trains out of 100 possible).


SIMPLE FIXES

1. When you earn the points for a train, you get the train, regardless of your racial base statline.

2. 1% 2% 5% 10% whatever.. of the points available in the system should = 1% 2% 5% 10% of the total reward. If you wanna boost the first 5 - 10 levels for casual pkers, ok.. but even it out waaaay faster so that Symiads don't happen. 

Honestly, Symiad should have somewhere between 4 and at most 8 trains with the 4000+pkp in my own humble opinion.


3. Also consider the idea of leaving the train gain rate the same and capping trains at a total of no more than 15-20 trains TOTAL for stats. TOTAL...  maybe 10 to str 5 to dex 5 to wis... mix match whatever but CAP it..  Additional PKP trains could then be used to GAIN Skills/Spells from other -BASE- classes. So.. you might have a caster with dual wield... or a skald with backstab... but it'd be cool and not game breaking. Maybe 10-20 trains per skill/spell so that even THAT is capped. Just something to consider. This would mean Symiad would have +20 total in stats and an extra skill/spell or +15 total in stats and a couple extra skills/spells.

The reason I don't think seasons will make this feel better is that its still going to be the same race/classes winning and gaining and the same group getting discouraged due to the inequity of stats. Everyone had high hopes that the stat overhaul was going to fix this. I would be in favor of just suspending (not removing) the PKP system entirely until we can properly address stat inequities first, then revisit PKP.

-0- kills till Symiad is in mothballs.


Edited by Symiad - 09 February 2020 at 2:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Symiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 2:53am
Let me also point out that I was able to test the difference in damage output of 51vs83 str (32 pkp trains) against 68vs100 int (32 pkp trains) with pkp stats. 

The results were awful. (performed without gear in a controlled environment)
68 to 100 int = +16% avg in damage per spell hit and +16% vs saves
51 to 83 str = over 100% increase in avg damage per hit.. and hitters get a LOT more attacks per round.

This is why I think we should suspend pkp (just respec everyone and temporarily disable pkp train), come up with a solution on STATS, then revisit PKP.


Edited by Symiad - 09 February 2020 at 2:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GoboSpit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 6:04am
Also let all races earn trains with the same amount of points, races like dwarves and minos have a long way to reach their first train and the first 10 or so are the quickest to get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Galaydon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 7:38am
Originally posted by GoboSpit GoboSpit wrote:

Also let all races earn trains with the same amount of points, races like dwarves and minos have a long way to reach their first train and the first 10 or so are the quickest to get.


Heck yes. I want my 320 stat line Troll Barb earning points right away. I meaning starting out at 96/60 isn't a big enough advantage already. 100/70 in a week! Sign me up! Week after that I could switch to a 315 stat orc arms and earn right away too!

Edited by Galaydon - 09 February 2020 at 7:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Minovoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 8:15am
I think PVP would benefit from a hard cap or the occasional reset.

Personally I enjoy my PKP much more for PVE and would hate to lose all that extra smash.

This is probably a nightmare to code but having a separate set of PKP for PVP starting (enter date) that is seasonal would be cool if characters kept their current PKP for PVE. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lothaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 8:44am
Originally posted by Galaydon Galaydon wrote:

Originally posted by GoboSpit GoboSpit wrote:

Also let all races earn trains with the same amount of points, races like dwarves and minos have a long way to reach their first train and the first 10 or so are the quickest to get.


Heck yes. I want my 320 stat line Troll Barb earning points right away. I meaning starting out at 96/60 isn't a big enough advantage already. 100/70 in a week! Sign me up! Week after that I could switch to a 315 stat orc arms and earn right away too!

This is a point to consider, yes. But on the flip side, elves and dwarves have most of their post 300 stats in either wis or int, which is something of a handicap as the system is instead of an actual bonus as it the higher stats were intended to be.
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