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Fynix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fynix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 6:15pm

Some Master Account rewards to boost your stats instead of PKP might not be the worst of ideas.  Especially if you can apply it to kingdomers as much as clanners.  I foresee this being a problem, however, for lots more idling to get those rewards, and the rewards being applied to those who have barely started in the field so they dominate early... it would seem a bit odd to me, at least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PersiaDark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 8:56pm
Bit overwhelmed in the real world at the moment to make a long argument.

I think mostly people are debating what seasons might look like.

My vote: No matter the details, PKP seasons is an amazing idea and would be an awesome change.

I remember how fun it was when PKP first came out. That starting part will be a blast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vikinglad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 9:08pm
As a newer player in the clanned world, I have about 10pkp across a few alts. The hardest part for a new player is figuring out if a build is valid. PKP resets would help even the playing field to help determine playstyle. When you play a large race and get smacked around by a human, makes things difficult to test.

Now from what I can tell, seasons is an easy way to change things up without recode which seems fair with a lack of coders. So I think its a good step to help even the playing field. Now my advice is 3 months. You will get a ton of dueling or sniping at the start for the arms race but that's the hope right? More fighting.

As for changing pkp itself or new rewards, that might be something after seasons if that fails but I think the chance to bring back old blood is greater than not doing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote gnome power Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 10:04pm
If -all- the dodge/parry/sb and their contested stat checks were divvied out to different stats, then I think a lot of the imbalance would be reduced. For instance, if sblock, parry, and dodge were distributed to say... opposed con, wis, and dex checks instead of str, then throwing all the pkp into a single stat wouldn't be enough to greatly imbalance pk. Meanwhile, str retains its big damage boost and weapon stun, but is no longer tied to breaking evasions or evading attacks.

At the same time this would take away some of the advantage from things like muls and trolls, it would also have the happy side effect of making things like felar, elves, etc a bit more hard to hit and able to break other people's defensive skills, which ostensibly they should be.

(Why would parry be wis? If you've studied weapons martial arts, then you might appreciate that parrying is done by deflecting force. If you try to stop a direct hit head-on, as if using a shield, then your weapon will break. You also parry proactively, not reactively, which is awareness rather than speed.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lactan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 10:13pm
Will something be done with 2.55x? As it was implemented to balance pkp should it too be reset every 6 months?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pellen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2020 at 10:34pm
Hard caps with 3/4 month resets. Numbers can be tinkered around with.

If the goal of PKP is to invigorate field PK, I think that it needs to be attacked on two fronts. Make the bounty system relevant again:

1) Have mid tier BP rewards beyond Bounty weapons @ 100 and Bounty Skills @ 2000. Maybe @ 500 / 750 / 1000 / 1500 you get some cosmetic additions to your character. Maybe even a mount! If you guys look at the bounty list right now, it's pretty dismal.

2) BP skills working. Energy Storm / Crit Strike need some love
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 3:13am
Seasons introduced with PKP stat redistribution. 
It is well known that mostly Str and less-so Dex are the only PKP stats worth pumping because they power-up the bagesus out of a chr.
  • What if you allowed all current existing PKP to be reset and then apportioned to Wis/Int/Con. That way you'd have some players running around who were more spell resistant or stun resistant, but you wouldn't have PKP monsters carving through your defenses like butter and hitting like a truck. If 100 con or wis make you uncastable/unstunnable, then maybe cap this as well at 20 - would require testing.
  • Then allow new Seasons PKP to be put into Str and Dex, so that no one's gets too high before it gets reset again.
There are clearly some players whose characters have only become viable because of PKP who would get shafted. The first idea would help Elves stack their Con, ogres stack their mental stats for whatever saves is using these days.

If PKP isn't getting removed, then best outcomes are 
  1. hard cap, 6-8 points. No one gets too tough past their balanced max.
  2. redistribution of hitting to include mental stats as GP suggested above. It does take some intelligence and cunning to hit someone and dodge something, and this is completely overlooked. Doing checks with 3x Str and 1x Dex would get toned down if Int and Wis had a significant role to play.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Azah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 5:35am
Lot of good points already made here. Let me just add in a simple addition of my own.

Please make the seasons automated.

It's a great idea in theory but I don't want it to go the way of ACFL/AGL/AWG seasons where they happen fewer and far between because they require you to kick the season off.

Edited by Azah - 10 February 2020 at 7:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Juelian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 10:13am
Originally posted by PersiaDark PersiaDark wrote:

Bit overwhelmed in the real world at the moment to make a long argument.

I think mostly people are debating what seasons might look like.

My vote: No matter the details, PKP seasons is an amazing idea and would be an awesome change.

I remember how fun it was when PKP first came out. That starting part will be a blast.


One concern I have: a lot of us get busy with real life (work, etc.). If a season is 6-8 months, and I have a work project I have to buckle down on the first 2-3 months of that then I have less incentive to come in and get pummeled for the remaining 5 months by people who have already amassed a fair amount (again, I would have to see the specifics on how trains are gained, how fast and if you still gain PKP from dying because those variables are important to make an assessment). The more I think about it, the less I like seasons and the more I'd prefer a straight cap of 8-10.

Let me pose this scenario also (I'll use Masc'dec as an example, I am obviously not her). Classic Bloodlust PK's in groups that are hard to beat alone, as a result, they gained TONS of PKP quickly making the already strongest clan even stronger. But, someone like Masc'dec over a lot of time was able to gain in strength even without the strong group. A player like that loses out here. There is no long game for them to where they can hope to make up for it. They'll get beaten down by groups and by the time they gain PKP slower it will get reset only to repeat process. This doesn't sound appealing to me, it's just another system that will benefit the haves only there's no hope to catch up for the have nots.

Another example: Is an enchanter really going to gain a lot of PKP over 6 months?... no, they won't.. those like Naomi who did play over a few years on a non-viable class to gain some get shafted.. they will -never- be able to accumulate any at a reasonable clip compared to the popular race/class combos.

I would like to see something that accounts for these scenario otherwise this will turn into the strong get stronger and there's no route for a player like Masc'dec or Naomi to play the long game to get better without bandwagon'ing. The more I think about these scenarios the less I like seasons and the more I'd prefer some other compromise.

Edited by Juelian - 10 February 2020 at 10:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Malachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 10:40am
My suggestion may have gotten swallowed up...

Make it a hard 8-10 cap per stat.

Make it so one could reasonably attain those first 8-10 trains within a month.

310 stat line and under gain trains immediately. Your trolls and orcs wait for their pkp level

Trains are gained at a flat rate of 10 pkp per train.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Kusanami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 10:50am
I like TJ's idea.
Hard Cap of +8 or +10 to stat
During Season you can go above and beyond but when season ends you go back to the +8 or +10 to a stat. Next season you start from 0 points but you still have the stat boosts from the previous season since they're hard locked.

Could always do the top let's say 5 people of a season gain master reward points or BP or restrings till next season for free.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PersiaDark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by Juelian Juelian wrote:

Originally posted by PersiaDark PersiaDark wrote:

Random poop PD said


One concern I have: a lot of us get busy with real life (work, etc.). If a season is 6-8 months, and I have a work project I have to buckle down on the first 2-3 months of that then I have less incentive to come in and get pummeled for the remaining 5 months by people who have already amassed a fair amount (again, I would have to see the specifics on how trains are gained, how fast and if you still gain PKP from dying because those variables are important to make an assessment). The more I think about it, the less I like seasons and the more I'd prefer a straight cap of 8-10.

Let me pose this scenario also (I'll use Masc'dec as an example, I am obviously not her). Classic Bloodlust PK's in groups that are hard to beat alone, as a result, they gained TONS of PKP quickly making the already strongest clan even stronger. But, someone like Masc'dec over a lot of time was able to gain in strength even without the strong group. A player like that loses out here. There is no long game for them to where they can hope to make up for it. They'll get beaten down by groups and by the time they gain PKP slower it will get reset only to repeat process. This doesn't sound appealing to me, it's just another system that will benefit the haves only there's no hope to catch up for the have nots.

Another example: Is an enchanter really going to gain a lot of PKP over 6 months?... no, they won't.. those like Naomi who did play over a few years on a non-viable class to gain some get shafted.. they will -never- be able to accumulate any at a reasonable clip compared to the popular race/class combos.

I would like to see something that accounts for these scenario otherwise this will turn into the strong get stronger and there's no route for a player like Masc'dec or Naomi to play the long game to get better without bandwagon'ing. The more I think about these scenarios the less I like seasons and the more I'd prefer some other compromise.

A solid point - I dont think I agree in the overall result though which will come up in some of my responses to other folk.

Symiad for example is a character who did something like you explained - built up PKP while not being in a steamroll clan. But Symiad (or other bladesingers) are not worse-off in a PKP-reset scenario. Nor do I fully agree with the narrative of 1 clan will dominate as a -result- of PKP resets. 

PKP Resets means overall, characters will be closer to their 'base' strengths. It means fighting will be more dynamic no matter what, even if one clan is dominating. 

Sure, Bloodlust might get a good group to farm PKP for the 3-6 months. But EVEN at the 6-month mark, and you login to your Khood person for the first time in a while, you are much better off in field PK than if you let Bloodlust PKP farm for 10 years and then you farm-die over 10 years. 


edit: And if you just mean very weak race/class combos can make themselves stronger over 10 years but not as strong in 6 months, that does the same thing to the strong race/class combos too. I'll acknowledge someone who goes the 'Long game' to be a super strong Kender Barbarian after 10 years (as long as everyone else only plays for 5 years) is something that cant happen anymore, but thats not really a healthy system. Heck, we had a Kender Nightshade get a bountypoint skill RECENTLY, think of how much easier it would have been without PKP. So the weaker combos still benefit most.


Edited by PersiaDark - 10 February 2020 at 5:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PersiaDark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Slann Slann wrote:

Originally posted by ZzZz ZzZz wrote:

The whole point of the seasons system is so its something fresh you do every couple months, and because you aren't trying to infinitely earn pk points, the limit of how much you lose is mitigated per season.

This guy is spot on. Apparently he sometimes does know what he's talking about.

There's a lot of focus on losing the "permanent" benefit of pkp with a season-based reset being bad for the health of PK in this thread. 

I would argue that is a good thing because:

- Reduced time investment for casual players to be modestly competitive
- 6 month resets encourage churning of the Clan population
- an even playing field every 6 months encourages swapping alts
- band wagons still happen, but without full pkp monsters they're less of an issue
- Keeps will be more difficult to solo
- UW resets by super chars will be more difficult
- long term, main characters still benefit from all the other power-gain systems (UW gear, BP, dskins, etc)
- group compositions will matter more without being able to lean on 100pkp hitters


Yes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PersiaDark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Tongpu Tongpu wrote:

I think the last thing we need is to make it another competition for Bloodlust/Justice
to win.

Sorry I know you/Slann kept arguing on this a little, but I wanted to just backtrack to the start since you guys were debating about how to debate rather than debating ;).

I feel the resets actually HELP this problem, dont they? Justice/Bloodlust have been a dominant force in PKP after the first few years of PKP (When earlier there were other clans also doing well, Slayers/Shalonesti/Khood had big PKP gainers). And it has become kind of self-enforcing, Bloodlust/Justice starting winning competitions too because less people were investing time outside of clans that could rack up PKP.

Resets dont solve the problem of bandwagons, but I'd say we would have much more clan competition during seasons (including the end of seasons) than we do now.

Not to mention 90% of clan 'balance' in FIELD PK is nothing more than if you get can actually get a playerbase together. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dsl_addicts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 5:46pm
posting for a friend on his idea.

PKP Cap:

Refund all PKP points and cap each stat at 5. This would give people a maximum of 30 trains to allocate across the stats. If someone has more than 30 trains each PKP level above that pays out 1 underworld seal.
 
Seasons:

A season temporarily raises the stat cap to 10 points per stat and increase earn rate for PKP. PKP is earned at an increased rate
At the end of a season people revert to the 5 points per stat cap and are paid out 1 underworld seal for each PKP level above the cap.

The season reset should be automated and mage gear added to the UW gear options
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tongpu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by PersiaDark PersiaDark wrote:

Originally posted by Tongpu Tongpu wrote:

I think the last thing we need is to make it another competition for Bloodlust/Justice
to win.

Sorry I know you/Slann kept arguing on this a little, but I wanted to just backtrack to the start since you guys were debating about how to debate rather than debating ;).

I feel the resets actually HELP this problem, dont they? Justice/Bloodlust have been a dominant force in PKP after the first few years of PKP (When earlier there were other clans also doing well, Slayers/Shalonesti/Khood had big PKP gainers). And it has become kind of self-enforcing, Bloodlust/Justice starting winning competitions too because less people were investing time outside of clans that could rack up PKP.

Resets dont solve the problem of bandwagons, but I'd say we would have much more clan competition during seasons (including the end of seasons) than we do now.

Not to mention 90% of clan 'balance' in FIELD PK is nothing more than if you get can actually get a playerbase together. 
 

He was recommending clans/individuals get bonuses for "end of season" pkp tallies. 
Rewards like dragonskins, +hp cards, +mana cards, clan_wide buffs, and the like. 
Do you think individuals are holistic and altruistic when it comes to maxxing out 
advantages? These are things people want to see less of in DSL's pvp.

You're a posterboy for crazy concarded health and mana [said with love and no hate,
just the real tea]. I think if you look in yourself and see that you lacked that restraint, 
that you shouldn't expect other people to not want that edge for themselves however 
they can get it. That's the beauty of TJ's suggestion and his suggestion is a fantastic
start to something that COULD be later expanded on if it works out.

People are lousy at self-policing. No. The other things you can count on in this game to
restrict, curb, and police are hardcoded.

If you can think of "end of season" rewards that are fair and not overwhelmingly power-
ful, and is something everyone can use and appreciate (meaning not UW seals, because
not everyone can use these), then I'm ready to be persuaded. 

Persuading me is not important, but I want to see what you see if you don't believe it 
will cause problems in the long run like these rewards have ruined the game in the past 
up until now. I'm ready to embrace the idea, but all evidence suggests more of the same
things that muddied up the game is not going to be the thing that makes it a better place
to play in.


Edited by Tongpu - 10 February 2020 at 6:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PersiaDark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Tongpu Tongpu wrote:


He was recommending clans/individuals get bonuses for "end of season" pkp tallies. 
Rewards like dragonskins, +hp cards, +mana cards, clan_wide buffs, and the like. 
Do you think individuals are holistic and altruistic when it comes to maxxing out 
advantages? Things people want to see less of in DSL's competitive/casual pvp.

You're a posterboy for crazy concarded health and mana [said with love and no hate,
just the real tea]. I think if you look in yourself and see that you lacked that restraint, 
that you shouldn't expect other people to not want that edge for themselves however 
they can get it.

People are lousy at self-policing. No. The other things you can count on in this game to
restrict, curb, and police are hardcoded.

If you can think of "end of season" rewards that is fair and not overwhelmingly power-
ful and is something everyone can use and appreciate (meaning not UW seals, because
not everyone can use these), then I'm ready to be persuaded. Persuading me may not
be very important in the scheme of things, but I want to see what you see if you don't
believe it will cause problems in the long run like these rewards have ruined the game
in the past up until now.

Ah sorry I didnt realize thats what ya'll were arguin about, I was just defending Slann's point about Seasons generally. 

I'm whatever on end of season rewards. I'm against any hp/mana stuff for example, but Clan Wars has stuff like Regen boosts and people are not exactly going crazy over that, so I can see some fun stuff that can thrown around for 'rewards'. 

Your stance makes sense - and yes I am a good example of someone who could abuse a character-buffing trait if I can keep earning it over and over. 

But either way, I'm only here to advocate for Seasons generally, so you have no debate from me :). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Juelian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by PersiaDark PersiaDark wrote:


edit: And if you just mean very weak race/class combos can make themselves stronger over 10 years but not as strong in 6 months, that does the same thing to the strong race/class combos too. I'll acknowledge someone who goes the 'Long game' to be a super strong Kender Barbarian after 10 years (as long as everyone else only plays for 5 years) is something that cant happen anymore, but thats not really a healthy system. Heck, we had a Kender Nightshade get a bountypoint skill RECENTLY, think of how much easier it would have been without PKP. So the weaker combos still benefit most.


I've thought about your response and depending on the implementation details I could compromise. For instance, if balancing the base line were a real focus it would go a long way. I think that would be good for the game in general. There are some really good ideas from others in this thread about ways to potentially balance (most of those boil down to tweaking strength, or having other stats potentially factored into the most important skill checks, like parry). If that were done it mostly alleviates my argument about playing catch up over the long haul.

You make a good point about PKP cutting both ways (it makes the weak stronger and the strong stronger). There is a PvE soft benefit in that the weak (strength wise) can participate in ways that is harder at the baseline (that strong race/classes don't have as much of an issue with). I think we've all watched a mage type with low strength and no PKP lose all their HP trying to get to the safe room in a keep. People with mid 60's strength, not so much of an issue of importance.

The more that I think about this topic and read peoples ideas I'm still pro some cap that you can work towards that stays static and then maybe a seasonal component (although I still don't love the seasonal component's constantly having to restart if there was a mix I could get on board with it). Maybe the static portion costs more that the seasonal component and maybe that cap isn't very high so that its not game breaking.

Your points are well taken, they've got me thinking. There are a lot of positive ideas in this thread I like.

Edited by Juelian - 10 February 2020 at 6:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tongpu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 6:53pm
If you want to go the rewards route for further incentivizing pkp accrual, you
can make a system where the rewards are grounded in making the game more
convenient to play.

Rewards such as:
 Φ access to a piece of furniture that is unique that may or may not improve
    your regen while sleeping on it for your personal home
 Φ access to an extra room for your personal home above the restricted amount
 Φ access to a personal item that automatically blesses/fireproofs things you put into
    it 
 Φ a consumable that completely eliminates hunger/thirst until the start of the next
    season
 Φ access to enhanced vault space


I can't think of anything else at the moment, but stuff like that. Things that don't un-
balance the game, but gives some fun quality of life and convenience improvements.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Minovoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2020 at 7:02pm
How great would it be if each season ended in a "purge" style world-wide Bloodbath?
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